Comments on Shakespeare Geek: What Exactly Is A Collier?

Actually, Anonymous, Catkins defines collier twice...

2009-01-26T15:58:00.000-05:00

Actually, Anonymous, Catkins defines collier twice in his first two posts:

"..and that "colliers" was "Proverbial not only for grime but for dishonesty."

and

"By the way, of course, the common sense of collier is "one who digs for or sells coals."

This is really unhelpful, it doesn't actually tell...

2009-01-26T15:30:00.000-05:00

This is really unhelpful, it doesn't actually tell us what a collier is, it just describes/translates the opening of Romeo and Juliet.

Check out Tilley's "Proverbs"--there are earlier o...

2008-06-24T18:14:00.000-04:00

Check out Tilley's "Proverbs"--there are earlier ones. And even later references are not irrelevent--they still show that the phrase was "current.'

The only trouble with the Nashe is it is after Rom...

2008-06-24T08:19:00.000-04:00

The only trouble with the Nashe is it is after Romeo and Juliet - and if you've ever read it is suspiciously similar in a couple of places - fig references too.

The reference the Arden gives to carrying coals me...

2008-06-24T05:56:00.000-04:00

The reference the Arden gives to carrying coals meaning "to submit to insults" is not circular, it is to Nashe's "Have With You." Good point though, Alan, about the Prolog opening the play. I agree, of course, about the double entendres (Shakespeare loved them), but still respectfully disagree about the violence of the opening. Editorial choice, as Duane says.

Also keep forgetting to mention - origin of collie...

2008-06-24T00:04:00.000-04:00

Also keep forgetting to mention - origin of collier is in 'charcoal' - and charcoal making rather than the modern stuff we call coal - Shakespeare would have known charcoal 'colliers' in the woods and forests around his home in Stratford.
It is a very dirty job.

The play starts with a prologue (no need to settle...

2008-06-23T23:41:00.000-04:00

The play starts with a prologue (no need to settle the audience after that): The prologue introduces the idea of death and destruction (no gentle comedy there): Then two 'comic' servants come on - there is certainly comedy, but it is not gentle.
They are in the middle of a conversation - Sampson seems to be continuing a discussion about 'what if we meet the Capulets ... hence his line which clearly means we will not put up with any insults (although the only evidence I've found that that is the meaning is circular - it is the usage in this play that makes it mean that).
The word coals could well have other conertations - and does not necessarily mean the black substance (it could be the coals at left after the fire has burnt down - all the grey dust, and hot ashes) - although it is quickly turned in to that by the reference to collier - clearly the person who delivers the black substance and gets covered in coal dust.
So far we have fighting and dirt - then we get hanging (and a hand gesture - suggesting something thin in the neck of something - death and sex: The 'end of sex' was frequently compared to death - he says while you live you draw your neck out of a collar - pull out at the end!).
The speed of ideas and swiftness of images is violent - and just the sort of humour we assume the groundlings love ...
It also means the 'strike quickly' unwittingly suggests premature ejaculation.
The not being quickly moved suggests sexual as well as physical cowardice and the word 'dog' was used in Shakespeare's time as both an insult and reference to women (much as 'bitch' is).

You certainly could 'take out' the double meaning and make this gentle - or never let the kids you teach it to note it's there (seen far too much of that in my time) - but Shakespeare is making a point about the carnal, physical nature of sex, its connection to violence in contrast to 'love' and giving the crowd the sort of dirty joke loved in all testosterone driven male groups (decline to comment on the female version).

Last time I directed it I started the prologue with Elizabethan music - gentle lute, etc - then went for Queen's 'We will Rock you' .. kicking my can all over the place ... it worked nicely (pre-Luhman by the way - who makes the servants more like friends of Romeo than servants, puts them in a car, and has them 'cruising' for girls and trouble).

Comical yes; gentle ? - not the way I see it.

(Rant over)

I don't have it handy either, but as I recall, Baz...

2008-06-23T19:59:00.000-04:00

I don't have it handy either, but as I recall, Baz got the temperature right - he went for the Comedy. Romeo and Juliet is a Comedy that goes awry - first it makes you laugh, then it pulls the rug out from under you. So he starts the show with sex and violence ("push Montague's men from the walland thrust his maids to the wall!" - yes, Alan, it's mostly about sex). And seriously, these are young Italian men on a hot summer Sunday, they're carrying swords in public - who isn't expecting a scuffle?
The fact that this is the third of the recent brawls and no one has died yet shows that this is more about posturing and showing off than true venom. These guys aren't looking for a fight - they're looking to show off, and paint themselves into a corner where they have to fight. Really, the cause is ridiculous, and they know it.
As far as colliers, unless they're literally carrying coals, it's best to give them some menial job for their master to resent, or else put them in some laughable position that irks their pride. It's the intent more than the literal meaning that spurs them on. (And I am a huge fan of literal meanings).

Fair enough, we'll make it a directorial choice. ...

2008-06-23T13:42:00.000-04:00

Fair enough, we'll make it a directorial choice. Does anybody know (or remember) where and how Luhrman starts the scene? I don't have the movie handy. Seems like if anybody was going to go over the top on the violent aspects, it'd be that one.

Saw a Hamlet once where Rosencrantz and Guildenstern were basically portrayed as skinheads. During the "Where's Polonius" interrogation, and I use that word on purpose, they're beating the hell out of Hamlet at Claudius' direction. Was a lot more violent than I'd ever seen them played. I distinctly remember them sticking his head in a bucket of water.

I agree completely with your analysis of what goes...

2008-06-23T13:31:00.000-04:00

I agree completely with your analysis of what goes on, but I don't think that changes the character of the opening exchange. Don't put more into the words than is there. If I were to direct the scene, I would make Sampson petulant (not thuggish) and Gregory teasing (not vicious). They are both cowards, of course, but if you play the opening scene too seriously you lose the sense of their childishness as well. R&J is all about adults acting like children and the tragic consequences that result.

I don't know, Carl, I think maybe I see Alan's poi...

2008-06-23T09:30:00.000-04:00

I don't know, Carl, I think maybe I see Alan's point to a degree. Taken to its extreme, the play has basically opened with somebody saying, for no real reason, "I'm looking for somebody's ass to kick." That'll serve as both an attention getter and a harbinger of the violence to come (it comes in just a few lines, no less). Gregory meanwhile is ridiculing his friend, taking the wind of his sails at every line, and basically showing him to be a thug. Even when the Montagues arrive and Samson shows himself a coward (telling Gregory to go start trouble, and he'll back him up), Gregory offers little more than "I will frown at them" - it is Samson who steps up to bite some thumb.

That interpretation alone, though, could have made Gregory a Benvolio-like peacekeeper for the Capulets. But Gregory screws it all up when he says "Say better, here comes one of my master's kinsmen", which translates pretty directly to "There's more of us now, so it's ok to start something because we'll win." They both end up cowards.

Alan, now you sound like one of those critics Duan...

2008-06-23T06:03:00.000-04:00

Alan, now you sound like one of those critics Duane was complaining about a few posts ago, seeing deep allusions in a simple opening exchange. I prefer to see a contast between this light, comical exchange and the viciousness that follows. I like Duane's idea of setlling down the audience. As here, Shakespeare often opens a play in the middle af a dialog between two characters. It has the effect of catching the audience's (or reader's) attention.--Carl

Where's the sex?

Pretty good as far as it g...

2008-06-22T23:37:00.000-04:00

Where's the sex?

Pretty good as far as it goes - but don't forget one of the beauties of the opening is the sexual innuendo - and there are a couple of points in what you've mentioned where one of the characters is suggesting 'something' the other doesn't get (but the audience would - irony - which happens again latter in the play with Romeo: The scene also mirrors Mercutio and Romeo going to the party - which also results in a fight with Tybalt).

There is nothing gentle in the exchange by the way - it is vicious and thuggish: Shakespeare is preparing the way for civil dispute, murder and suicide: There are pointers in the direction of what is love compared to lust - and the reference to colliers with its legal questioning hints (very slightly) at questions of the rule of law.

Far from 'settling down' the audience, Shakespeare is preparing them - a satyr play in reverse (satyr plays were performed in Greek theatre at the end of the trilogy making crude sexual innuendo out of the major themes of the tragedy just performed).

By the way, of course, the common sense of collier...

2008-06-22T15:22:00.000-04:00

By the way, of course, the common sense of collier is "one who digs for or sells coals."

Brian Gibbons explains (The Arden Shakespeare) tha...

2008-06-22T15:20:00.000-04:00

Brian Gibbons explains (The Arden Shakespeare) that "to carry coals" was "A current expression which meant 'to submit to insult or humiliation'" and that "colliers" was "Proverbial not only for grime but for dishonesty."
Sampson is the straight man here and Gregory is the punster. Gregory keeps playing with the words and twisting the meanings and Sampson is doing the best he an to keep up. This is typical Shakespearean comedy, with one character outsmarting the other with words, although here it is a sort of "gentle raillery." It seems to me you have caught the sense quite right.